He too was wealthy, not in Meno’s old aristocratic way, but as heir to the successful tannery of a self-made businessman. Socrates' response: Everyone desires what they think is good (an idea one encounters in many of Plato's dialogues). While the theory that learning is recollection suggests that an essential basis for wisdom and virtue is innate, Socrates also reminds Meno that any such basis in nature would still require development through experience (89b). Meno's second definition: Virtue is the ability to rule men. Meno Problems and Epistemological Axiology Meno: In that case, I wonder why knowledge should be so much more prized than right opinion, and indeed how there is any difference between them. Through many reversals of fortune, Athens both suffered greatly and flourished culturally, using some of that tribute for her own development and adornment. But to really be able to teach someone how to grow tomatoes, you need more than a bit of practical experience and a few rules of thumb; you need a genuine knowledge of horticulture, which includes an understanding of soils, climate, hydration, germination, and so on. Thread starter Jayjayef; Start date 43 minutes ago; Sort by reaction score; Forums. Like Meno, most of us think we already know what “being a good person” or “being a great person” is like, but we would be stumped if we had to define it. Later in the conversation, Socrates even seems to identify “recollection” with this latter part of the process (98a). Fine, Gail. As Plato depicts Socrates, it was not easy to understand his position in either the politics or the controversial new teachings of the time. In the Meno, Socrates presses Anytus about why so many of Athens’ leading statesmen have failed to teach even their own sons to be good, and Anytus could probably see that these questions apply to himself. Although fairly short, Plato's dialog Meno is generally regarded as one of his most important and influential works. Socrates doesn't insist that his claims about reincarnation are certain. Most don't consider it a proof of the theory of reincarnation, and even Socrates concedes that this theory is highly speculative. After persuading Meno to take seriously his own favorite notion—that virtue is achieved through some kind of knowledge, rather than through wealth and political power—Socrates endeavors to convince Meno that learning just by hearing from others does not provide real knowledge or real virtue. A further reason for the inconclusiveness of the Meno is the inherent difficulty of providing the kind of definition that Socrates seeks. But there it is countered by a long explanation from the sophist Protagoras of how virtue is in fact taught to everyone by everyone, not with definitions or by mere verbal instruction, but in a life-long training of human nature through imitation, storytelling, and rewards and punishments of many kinds. “Learning as Recollection.” In Plato I: Metaphysics and Epistemology, edited by Gregory Vlastos, 53-69. Accordingly, many scholars believe that the Meno was written between those groups of dialogues, and probably about 385 B.C.E. In the last third of the dialogue, when Meno will not try again to define virtue, Socrates introduces and explores his own suspicion in terms of the following “hypothesis”: if virtue is taught then it is knowledge, and if it is knowledge then it is taught, but not otherwise. The Meno is related by its dramatic setting to the famous series of dialogues that center on the historical indictment, trial, imprisonment, and death of Socrates (Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo). Burnet, John. When Meno starts to recognize his difficulties, Socrates encourages him to practice with definitions about shape (75a) and gives him a series of paradigms or examples to practice with (73e-77a); later, he criticizes Meno for refusing to do so (79a). back to the unanswered question of what virtue is (Is it knowledge?). Hence the flip side of "virtue is knowledge" is "all wrongdoing is ignorance," a claim that Plato spells out and seeks to justify in dialogues such as the Gorgias. Just downloaded OS Big Sur on to my iMac but have a problem with the Menu Bar. Next, Socrates offers an independent argument (based on a different hypothesis) that virtue must in fact be some kind of knowledge, because virtue is necessarily good and beneficial, and only knowledge could be necessarily good and beneficial. Socrates, typically for him, says he doesn't know since he doesn't know what virtue is, and he hasn't met anyone who does. But if Meno forgets or deliberately avoids it, Socrates does not. Posts about the meno problem written by prudensdiscipulus. The dialogue opens with Meno’s challenge to Socrates about how “virtue” (aretê) is achieved. Isn’t Socrates trying to teach Meno, by leading him to a correct definition of virtue, as he led Meno’s slave to the correct answer in the geometry lesson? What is the difference between really knowing something and merely holding a correct belief about it? In this connection, Socrates’ introduction of a “hypothetical” method of inquiry, adopted from mathematics, is developed somewhat in the Phaedo and in Republic Book VI. Meno's paradox: Either we know something or we don't. So why would Socrates use the faulty hypothesis that knowledge and only knowledge is taught, when it contradicts his notion of recollection and his model geometry lesson? Request PDF | On Dec 31, 2003, Thomas Nickles published Evolutionary Models of Innovation and the Meno Problem | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate But justice is only one of the virtues. Much of the best Greek art still familiar to us today—the sculpture and architecture, the tragedy and comedy—comes from the Athens of that time. Their executions, expropriations, and expulsions earned them the hatred of most Athenians; later “the Thirty” became known as “the Thirty Tyrants.” The extremists among them first purged their more obvious enemies, then turned to the moderates who resisted their cruelty and wanted a broader oligarchy or restricted democracy that included the thousands in the middle class. Much of ancient Greek literature shows that aretê was a central ideal and basic motivator throughout the culture. And “excellence” is rather weak and abstract for the focus of these Socratic dialogues, which is something people spent a lot of time thinking and worrying about. The notion of learning as recollection is revisited most conspicuously in Plato’s Phaedo (72e-76e) and Phaedrus (246a ff. The good men who fail to teach their sons virtue are like practical gardeners without theoretical knowledge. Does he suggest that you either know what youre looking for, and therefore do not need to inquire into it, or you dont know what youre looking for, and therefore cannot inquire into it, because you dont know it? Thanks for watching! But there is something wrong with the hypothesis that all and only knowledge is taught. Therefore it can't be teachable after all. In fact, our dialogue as a whole shows that Meno will not acquire the wisdom that is virtue until after he already practices some measure of virtue: at least the kind of humility, courage, and industriousness that are necessary for genuine learning. Some democrats were suspicious of Socrates, and may have believed that he had sided with the extreme oligarchs, because of his prior relationships with some of them. and an innate intellectual vision in the Republic (507a-509c, 518b ff.). Socrates was then about sixty-seven years old, and had long been famous for his difficult questions about virtue and knowledge. Vlastos, Gregory. To make matters more confusing, a few of the Thirty Tyrants or their extremist supporters, like Critias and Charmides, had earlier been associates of Socrates. In this whole inconclusive conversation, the most important Socratic proposal is that “virtue” (aretê in Greek) must be some kind of knowledge. In response to Socrates' wondering, rather tongue-in-cheek query whether sophists might not be teachers of virtue, Anytus contemptuously dismisses the sophists as people who, far from teaching virtue, corrupt those who listen to them. Socrates is unconvinced. This line is pursued with the further “firm hypothesis” that virtue must always be a good thing. Dishes burgers fries tacos cheeseburgers sandwiches karaoke. Plato wrote Meno about 385 BCE, placing the events about 402 BCE, when Socrates was 67 years old, and about three years before he was executed for corrupting Athenian youth. Ultimately, the knowledge in question is the knowledge of what truly is in one's best long-term interests. The second stage of the dialogue begins with that momentous, twofold objection: if someone does not already know what virtue is, how could he even look for it, and how could he even recognize it if he were to happen upon it? 3. The Meno does not end up specifying just what kind of innate resources enable genuine learning about geometry or virtue: Socrates infers from the geometry lesson both that the slave had innate knowledge (85d), and that he had innate beliefs that can be converted to knowledge (85c, 86a), but the dialogue ends with an agreement that “men have neither of these by nature, neither knowledge nor true belief” (98c-d). Or what kind of wisdom? But what about his practice? “Inquiry in the Meno.” In The Cambridge Companion to Plato, edited by Richard Kraut, 200-226. Vlastos, Gregory. But many philosophers have found something impressive about the passage. Socrates’ persistence in encouraging Meno to practice active inquiry points in the same direction as the sketchy theory of recollection: while the kind of wisdom that could be real virtue would require understanding the nature of virtue itself, it would not be achieved by being told the definition. Much of their influence came through their expensive courses in public speaking, which in Athens prepared young men of old aristocratic families for success in democratic politics. First, he argues, on the hypothesis that virtue is necessarily good, that it must be some kind of knowledge, and therefore must be something that is taught. and 480 B.C.E. Meno asks Socrates to return to their original question: Can virtue be taught? The whole range of examples used in this dialogue would be relevant. Plato would say that a belief that is held subject to revision is not truly knowledge. A general definition would be something like this: shape is that which is bounded by color. Anytus is a prominent Athenian politician and Meno’s host in Athens. And then he just wants to hear Socrates’ answers, and keeps resisting the hard work of definition that Socrates keeps encouraging. He reminds Meno that even professional teachers and good men themselves disagree about whether virtue can be taught. To that end we are asking whether good men past or present know how to bestow on another this virtue which makes them good, or whether it just isn’t something a man can give or receive from another. Socrates generally advocates humility and justice above all (for example, Apology 20cff, 29dff, Crito 49aff), and he specifically refutes and chastises Charmides and Critias in Plato’s Charmides. The Meno’s geometry lesson with the slave, where success in learning some geometry is supposed to encourage serious inquiry about virtue, is one indication of Plato’s interest in relations between mathematical and moral education. There follows an exchange with Anytus, who has joined the conversation, that is charged with dramatic irony. Then he was a general for the democratic forces in the fight to overthrow the Thirty in 403 B.C.E., and he quickly became a leading politician in the restored democracy. But more important is the fact that he legitimately helps the slave to work out the reasoning, and thereby see the way in which the unexpected answer was implied by other true beliefs that he already had. According to Xenophon, when Cyrus was killed and his other commanders were quickly beheaded by the King’s men, Meno was separated and tortured at length before being killed, because of his special treachery (see Xenophon’s Anabasis II, 6). Socrates does this in his typical style, through a series of questions: Soc. But if we don't know it if we can't inquire since we don't know what we're looking for and won't recognize it if we found it. What’s so great about knowledge? Is Meno here honestly identifying a practical difficulty with this particular kind of inquiry, where the participants now seem not to know even what they are looking for? Virtue is its own definition. Meno raises an objection to the entire definitional search in the form of (what has been called) “Meno’s Paradox,” or “The Paradox of Inquiry” (Meno 80d-e). Or is it not taught, but trained? Bluck, R. S. Plato’s Meno, Edited with Introduction and Commentary. “Plato’s Earlier Theory of Knowledge.” In Essays on the Philosophy of Socrates, edited by Hugh Benson, 86-106. Socrates responds by calling over an enslaved boy, who he establishes has had no mathematical training, and setting him a geometry problem. Meno is apparently visiting the newly restored Athenian government to request aid for his family, one of the ruling aristocracies in Thessaly, in northern Greece, that was currently facing new power struggles there. Socrates’ efforts to guide Meno throughout the dialogue indicate that achieving the wisdom that is virtue would require both the right kind of natural abilities and the right kind of training or practice—so that teaching can help if it is not mere verbal instruction but discussions that help a learner to discover the knowledge for himself. The questions in the Meno about teaching virtue are directly related to longstanding tensions between oligarchic and democratic factions. What sort of thing, among the things you don’t know, will you propose to look for? But this could be at most a shift of emphasis, since even Homer’s epics of war and adventure celebrate pity and humility, justice and self-control. The boy's first guess is that one should double the length of the square's sides. They do well enough themselves most of the time, but their opinions are not always reliable, and they aren't equipped to teach others. Voice is a crucial element of poetry — of all literature. Thousands of Athenians were killed or fled the city, and many who stayed acquiesced in fear for their lives. Meno's first definition: Virtue is relative to the sort of person in question. “Socratic Education.” In Philosophers on Education, edited by Amelie Rorty, 13-29. If problem persists proceed with steps below. Meno, however, still fails to grasp this distinction between instances of virtue and the definition of virtue, and Socrates must use another example. Shortly before this dialogue takes place, some leading Spartans and allies considered killing all the Athenian men and enslaving the women and children. (That was a traditional aristocratic notion, but it has a democratic shape at Meno 92e, Apology 24d ff., and Protagoras 325c ff.) Socrates: Shall I tell you the reason for your surprise, or do you know it? (93a-b). While the content of Meno is a classic in its form and metaphysical function, it also has an underlying and ominous subtext. Translated by Alex Long and David Sedley. Cambridge University Press, 2006. And what about Socrates: does he teach virtue in the Meno? But he does argue that the demonstration supports his fervent belief that we will live better lives if we believe that knowledge is worth pursuing as opposed to lazily assuming that there is no point in trying. And anyone who fails to be virtuous reveals that they don't understand this. Even these Platonic portraits vary somewhat across his many dialogues, but all are similar in one way or another to what we see in the Meno. The point of the Meno paradox is to ask how we … Plato: Meno. As Socrates says to Anytus: For some time we have been examining … whether virtue is something that’s taught. The author decides to allow their personality to enter the work, to fill it with their unique perspective and feeling. Surely much of what is taught is just opinion, and surely some knowledge is learned on one’s own, without a teacher. ", ThoughtCo uses cookies to provide you with a great user experience and for our, Part One: The Search for a Definition of Virtue. It seems that Meno is used to thinking of learning as just hearing and remembering what others say, and he objects to continuing the inquiry into the nature of virtue with Socrates precisely because neither of them already knows what it is (80d). Socrates replies that he does not as yet know what virtue is, and has never known anyone who did. But Socrates rejects it. Cambridge University Press, 1992. In this dialogue, Plato imagines Meno encountering Socrates shortly before that disastrous Persian adventure, when he has not yet proved himself to be the “scoundrel” and “tyrant” that Socrates suspects and Xenophon later confirms. This difficulty must confront any reader of the Socratic dialogues; but one searches them in vain for any explicit statement of the problem or for any explicit solution to it. Those dialogues emphasize some of the same criteria for successful definitions as the Meno, including that it must apply to all and only relevant cases, and that it must identify the nature or essence of what is being defined. And the combination of quotations from Theognis near the end of the dialogue suggest that virtue is learned not through verbal teaching alone, but through some kind of character-apprenticeship under the guidance of others who are already accomplished in virtue (95d ff.). But then Anytus cannot explain Socrates’ long list of counterexamples: famous Athenians who were widely considered virtuous, but who did not teach their virtue even to their own sons. (70a), Some have argued that Plato mentions training in the opening lines only because it was one of the traditional options debated in his day. Second Edition. The task is more difficult than it first seems, even for things like shape and color (see 75b-76e); it is even harder to accomplish for something like virtue. For it would be a very lucky thing if I turned out not to have told the truth when I said I never met a man who knew, if I find out you and Gorgias know. Rather, Socrates’ practice in the geometry lesson actually goes pretty well with his theory that there is no teaching, because his leading questions there require that the slave think through the deduction of the answer from what he already knew. Cambridge University Press, 2011. The first contemporary wave of work on the value problem largelyconcerned whether this problem raised a distinctive difficulty forreliabilist accounts of knowledge—i.e., those views whichessentially define knowledge as reliably-formed true belief. For example, Meno’s initial claim that there are irreducibly different virtues for different kinds of people (71e) is incompatible with his implicit belief (elicited by Socrates) that virtues cannot be different insofar as they are virtues. Nor could he seek what he doesn’t know, because he doesn’t know what to look for. What Is the 'Ladder of Love' in Plato's 'Symposium'? He asks again whether virtue is something that is taught, and once again he wants to be taught about this just by being told (86c-d; compare 70a, 75b, 76a-b, 76d). Scott, Dominic. And it includes a tense confrontation with one of the men who will bring Socrates to trial on charges of corrupting young minds with dangerous teachings about morality and religion. … Meno’s frustration in trying to define virtue had led him to object: But in what way will you look for it, Socrates, this thing that you don’t know at all what it is? Drinks beer. “Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by fighting back” (Hein 1966). We also see Anytus, who will one day be one of the prosecutors responsible for Socrates' trial and execution, warn Socrates that he should be careful what he says, especially about his fellow Athenians. So the Meno begins with a typically unsuccessful Socratic search for a definition, providing some lessons about good definitions and exposing someone’s arrogance in thinking that he knows much more than he really knows.

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